Senate Combat or Combat of Words

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Senate Combat or Combat of Words

Postby Skaldsaga » Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:16 am

So I've been watching the debates and I stated thinking that debating is it's own form of combat. What if there were Advance Maneuvers for Debates like; Appeal to Authority, Ad Hominem Attack, Strawman Argument,
and other Fallacies. They would work much like Advance Maneuvers in Combat.

Player A: "I spend 2 wagers to use an Ad Hominem Attack."
Player B: "I spend 2 wagers to refute with Appeal to Authority."
Player A: "I use 2 wagers to...."

Maybe Mr. Wick has already thought of this and will be in the upcoming Senate Book, but what are your thoughts on this?
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Re: Senate Combat or Combat of Words

Postby Democritus » Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:46 am

I think it's a nice idea to have some sort of sub-system for debates and social conflict in general. It would fit but one always has to be careful to not let it overshadow the roleplaying behind it all.
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Re: Senate Combat or Combat of Words

Postby Snag » Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:48 am

Indeed. My own preferred method has always been to give an introduction for something I'm going to state when dealing in a field where I'm not terribly adept, and then resorting to the dice once I've exhausted my pseudo-ability.
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Re: Senate Combat or Combat of Words

Postby Democritus » Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:22 pm

Now again, with a bit more time and verbosity:

I think a social conflict system would be a nice addition, and something that the less martially (or arcanely) interested characters/players can spend some time on developing skill in. Now keep in mind there is a system for Insult, which already does some of what Social Combat does, but generally I can imagine some wager-based "maneuvers" (sp?) for Social Combat. Possibly interacting heavily with both permanent and temporary aspects.

For example when trying to seduce someone you might be able to put the "smitten" aspect on them, which would allow you to compel them to well... go along with the seduction. The compel might be free or it might cost style points. There might be meanuvers for certain kinds of "conflict". Seduction, Persuasion, Debate, Morale....
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Re: Senate Combat or Combat of Words

Postby JohnWick » Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:45 am

Skaldsaga wrote:So I've been watching the debates and I stated thinking that debating is it's own form of combat. What if there were Advance Maneuvers for Debates like; Appeal to Authority, Ad Hominem Attack, Strawman Argument,
and other Fallacies. They would work much like Advance Maneuvers in Combat.

Player A: "I spend 2 wagers to use an Ad Hominem Attack."
Player B: "I spend 2 wagers to refute with Appeal to Authority."
Player A: "I use 2 wagers to...."

Maybe Mr. Wick has already thought of this and will be in the upcoming Senate Book, but what are your thoughts on this?


I did think of this, but I didn't want dice rolling to replace roleplaying. That's why the argument mechanic exists (which will be expanded in the Senate book).
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Re: Senate Combat or Combat of Words

Postby Mishka » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:40 am

Please don't make this pure dice rolling. That kind of social mechanics system almost killed Exalted Second Edition. :cry:
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Re: Senate Combat or Combat of Words

Postby JohnWick » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:01 am

Mishka wrote:Please don't make this pure dice rolling. That kind of social mechanics system almost killed Exalted Second Edition. :cry:


Trust me. I hates that.
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Re: Senate Combat or Combat of Words

Postby Skaldsaga » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:17 pm

Thanks for the feedback.
I too don't think dice rolling should take precedent over roleplaying. Especially when it comes to social situations.

It seems like the senate and debates are a big part of ven culture. I was trying to illustrate that with the Advance maneuvers for debates. Something to make it so debates were bigger then just I present my case, you present your case and roll some dice. Something to encourage roleplaying. After re-reading my original post, I can see how it doesn't suggest that. Sorry that's my bad. It sounded to martial.

Since there's expanded rules in the senate book, I guess I'll have to wait for them. I'm sure they will be just a cool as the insult and romance rules.

In the mean time, I'd like to speculate, brainstorm ideas.

After both sides have presented their arguments (roleplaying). How do you decide who wins, who gets most of the votes. You roll dice, just like you would on any other risk. So how do you make it bigger, thats were debate techniques come it. (Debate Techniques sound better then Advance Maneuvers.) As players banter back and forth, excitement builds, points and count-points are exchanged. The golden rod is passed between the duelist. Until both sides have finished making points. Resulting in the climax and resolution of the vote (the roll). (If a clear winner is determined with the roleplaying then maybe you don't need to roll.)

How to do that?

Maybe what I suggested doesn't or wouldn't work because all the bantering (Techniques or Adv. Maneuvers) takes place after the roll. After it's been pretty much determine who the winner is. So what if the techniques occurred before the roll. Kind of like how wagers are spent before the roll in the insult rules. You spend style to perform a technique. Once you use a technique you can't use it again for that debate (Or not, I don't know. It just seems like bad form to use the same technique over and over.). Your opponent can refute (and spend style) with a different technique. Which could be rebutted by a different technique. Back and forth wagering style until one side either runs out of techniques to use, decides to stop spending style on techniques, or runs out of style. At which point you gather dice, the one who used the last technique gains a number of dice equal to the rank of the technique used (or maybe gets a number of free wagers, something for getting the last word in). Call wagers like normal, and you roll for privilege. The winner gains all the style spent on techniques used for the debate.

Just a thought.
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Re: Senate Combat or Combat of Words

Postby JohnWick » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:55 pm

*sees Luther's icon*

*falls flat on the floor*

*ROFL-ROFL-ROFL-ROTFFL*

I have a new icon. :)


EDIT: I can't take it. It's too cool. It's all yours, Luther.
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Re: Senate Combat or Combat of Words

Postby Snag » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:28 pm

...neat, you broke John.

I'm not cleanin' it up.
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