On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

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Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby Keith Fyans » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:25 am

Well, I'll grant that that makes Conquest *initially* faster. However, it also seems like it makes it slower in the long run, because of the aforementioned grinding away.

I wasn't sure where you were going with this... and now realise we are totally cross communicating!

For example: Bob and Jim. Jim's Province consists of ten Loyalty 3 Regions. Bob has a Rank 3 Personal Guard, and Prowess 3.

Turn 1:
Bob sneaks in to Region A with his Personal Guard. Jim blows his Cunning check, and so Bob gets an unexpected attack. He rolls 4d with 2 Wagers. He succeeds the Risk, reducing the Loyalty to 1. He then spends his first Wager to reduce the Region's Loyalty to 0. He then spends the next Wager to... establish the new Loyalty of the Region to 1? It's kind of fuzzy on how exactly the transition takes place.

OK, I didn't mean a Cunning check before a surprise attack (my bad explaination), but after to work out a secret army had been used. You only get this with Secret Armies because they should be Secret.

Also, there is no need to reduce the Loyalty to zero before taking it. Sure the defender may sacrifice the loyalty of their land to prelong the battle and try keep hold of it, but the opponent just has to see off any resistance to win. No opponent = No Risk after all. Simply having the Truth stated that you take the Region is all that is needed. Also, if it is a surprise attach there is nobody defending it. The peasants keep their heads low when a noble boss comes in; reset the Loyalty clock and job is done.

Now from then on it becomes a bit harder, as your opponent ill have prob worked outn that you have a Secret Army and so the Mass Murder becomes bloodier and each step become harder fought, but at the same time this is building up the feud between the two houses... a feud over ownership of land. And honour. And Blood.
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Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby wastevens » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:48 am

Eh. I disagree that a single Truth should be able to be used to claim ownership of a Region, regardless of it's initial Loyalty. See the aforementioned 'Like dealing a Rank 5 Injury with a single Prowess check'.

On that contention, all other objections rest. While it will certainly speed up conquest, I disagree in principle. Furthermore, I don't see it as leading to escalation; Escalation requires a motivation to not apply maximum force available from the outset, and I see no reason for such here.

That said, making Conquest a rolled risk with additional complications that can be introduced by Wagers has merit... *stealstealsteal* http://housesoftheblooded.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2240 Behold!
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Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby wunderworks » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:59 pm

A lot of mass combat games deal with this issue, because historically, it was an issue. The issue of loyalty for the new owner.

I think Loyalty should have nothing to do with how EASY or HARD it is to conquer a region: See Operation Iraqi Freedom. I do think that Loyalty should be a factor in how HARD it is to keep a region happy (No Trouble) once you take it.

If a Region you've taken has Negative Loyalty to you then it causes that much trouble each season. That's right. If it had Loyalty 2 to your enemy when you took it, then it automatically causes 2 Trouble that has to be Quelled by 2 actions via Roadmen, etc..

Historically, units like Dragoons were employed during the Napoleonic era, to quell trouble in regions recently taken over. So you could do the same thing in HotB. This region WILL cause 2 trouble unless you leae 2 ranks of Roadmen in this region for 2 seasons until the Loyalty becomes a 0.

That way you can keep your army rolling and go for the jugular and leave all that trouble frothing behind you....

That to me seems to most closely simulate reality. And I like Keith's idea that the entire conquest is a single Mass Murder roll. Although I think Cunning should be the Virtue for Commanding Armies, not Prowess. Only the soon to be dead or the desperate general leads his men into battle. As Sun Tzu said, "The defeated general goes to war, then seeks to win. While the victorious general wins first, then goes to war."

Also, only being able to conquer one province a Season is rather weak sauce. The Mongols (I KNOW!) could conquer vast territories during the Winter, and the Romans, the Greeks, and the Japanese were all renowned for fast moving militaries that could take over vast areas quickly. Conquer as often as you like, I say! Be the Summer Son of Amaterasu and conquer an entire province in one Summer Season! ^_^
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Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby wastevens » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:19 pm

wunderworks wrote:A lot of mass combat games deal with this issue, because historically, it was an issue. The issue of loyalty for the new owner.

I think Loyalty should have nothing to do with how EASY or HARD it is to conquer a region: See Operation Iraqi Freedom. I do think that Loyalty should be a factor in how HARD it is to keep a region happy (No Trouble) once you take it.

If a Region you've taken has Negative Loyalty to you then it causes that much trouble each season. That's right. If it had Loyalty 2 to your enemy when you took it, then it automatically causes 2 Trouble that has to be Quelled by 2 actions via Roadmen, etc..

Historically, units like Dragoons were employed during the Napoleonic era, to quell trouble in regions recently taken over. So you could do the same thing in HotB. This region WILL cause 2 trouble unless you leae 2 ranks of Roadmen in this region for 2 seasons until the Loyalty becomes a 0.

That way you can keep your army rolling and go for the jugular and leave all that trouble frothing behind you....


This is a neat idea :) It also provides more reason to have Roadmen, which is good- Trouble feels too uncommon, presently.

I'm not *entirely* sold on the idea- but the heart's in the right place!

You described it as '2 Ranks of Roadmen for 2 Seasons to pacify a Region with Loyalty 2'. How does that work for a Region with Loyalty 4? With Loyalty 10?

wunderworks wrote:That to me seems to most closely simulate reality. And I like Keith's idea that the entire conquest is a single Mass Murder roll. Although I think Cunning should be the Virtue for Commanding Armies, not Prowess. Only the soon to be dead or the desperate general leads his men into battle. As Sun Tzu said, "The defeated general goes to war, then seeks to win. While the victorious general wins first, then goes to war."


I disagree. The Sun Tzu quote more relates to the building up of forces, securing of allies and selecting the grounds of the fight- not the actual fighting itself. All of which *are* things Cunning is good at, by virtue of granting more Season actions. Fighting is Prowess. Cunning does enough; no need to make it more awesome.

wunderworks wrote:Also, only being able to conquer one province a Season is rather weak sauce. The Mongols (I KNOW!) could conquer vast territories during the Winter, and the Romans, the Greeks, and the Japanese were all renowned for fast moving militaries that could take over vast areas quickly. Conquer as often as you like, I say! Be the Summer Son of Amaterasu and conquer an entire province in one Summer Season! ^_^


The Mongols were also a *hoard*. They had thousands upon thousands of horsemen. Ven armies are big when they push into the 80s.

That said, mayhaps. Mayhaps. How does that resolve, though?
Like, if I split my Rank 3 Personal Guard into three Rank 1 Personal Guards, and send myself, my wife, my Swordsman and my General (leading a Rank 1 Secret Army) to four Regions of my neighbor, intent on conquoring each of them- when and how does he get to respond? Only to one incursion? In sequence? Who selects the order the battles are fought in? Can I use successive actions to continue the invasion- and if I do, again, the question of response becomes important.

This seems akward.
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Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby Keith Fyans » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:05 am

wastevens wrote:Eh. I disagree that a single Truth should be able to be used to claim ownership of a Region, regardless of it's initial Loyalty. See the aforementioned 'Like dealing a Rank 5 Injury with a single Prowess check'.

On that contention, all other objections rest.

Cool - we are totally in a Choc-chip vs Strawberry situation - the good thing about it is that we have both gained insight from the chat :D

One mod I could make to my idea is that you don't take the region until it is at Loyalty 1 and has no defenders; and allow both sides to use Wagers to lower Loyalty. My problem here is that there is a huge incentive for the Attacker to target the Loyalty and force a retreat. I was thinking of it in terms that the loyalty of the ruk lasting as long as it was protected... new army rols in and you are unprotected, well, that's the business of the Blooded.
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Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby Astelle_Mwwr » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:16 am

Okay, something just struck me as odd now that I think about it... a fully developed region takes 7 turns... does it really take that long to conquer?
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Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby wastevens » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:06 am

Astelle_Mwwr wrote:Okay, something just struck me as odd now that I think about it... a fully developed region takes 7 turns... does it really take that long to conquer?


... I'm not sure where you're getting 7 turns.

I thought it only took one Season Action to raise a Region's rank. (Some vauge inkling is saying it takes a number of Season Actions equal to the new Rank, but that would still be 5, not 7...)

The key reason exploring forever even when under attack works is because it takes a minimum of 2 Season to conquor a Region presently (one to reduce the Loyalty to 0, one to establish yourself as in charge), whereas you can undertake multiple Exploration/Improvement actions per Season.

And that 2 Season minimum to conquor? That's exceedingly optimistic. That's 'Loyalty is low enough to knock it out in one Season, and they don't put up any resistance or anything'. It's more generous to the aggressor than is really reasonable.
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Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby Astelle_Mwwr » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:08 pm

Sorry, I meant to say 10. You forgot Holdings.
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Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby Keith Fyans » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:20 pm

wunderworks wrote:I think Loyalty should have nothing to do with how EASY or HARD it is to conquer a region ... If a Region you've taken has [Loyalty to your enemy] then it causes that much trouble each season. That's right. If it had Loyalty 2 to your enemy when you took it, then it automatically causes 2 Trouble that has to be Quelled by 2 actions via Roadmen, etc..

That way you can keep your army rolling and go for the jugular and leave all that trouble frothing behind you....Conquer as often as you like, I say! Be the Summer Son of Amaterasu and conquer an entire province in one Summer Season! ^_^

I'm loving this... *yoinked*


wunderworks wrote:That to me seems to most closely simulate reality. And I like Keith's idea that the entire conquest is a single Mass Murder roll. Although I think Cunning should be the Virtue for Commanding Armies, not Prowess. Only the soon to be dead or the desperate general leads his men into battle. As Sun Tzu said, "The defeated general goes to war, then seeks to win. While the victorious general wins first, then goes to war."

Ah, but we are talking Ven Opera here, where the Ven that could determine the Advantage of the field would win the day. Even the old master said that all other things being equal it is they who have Heaven and Earth upon their side that will be victorious. Prowess is surely the Virtue for taking that Advantage.

As Marquis Jafear Adrente said: "Be as Cunning as you like in your plans, for the paper they are written on will be burned by the flame of War."
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Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby tobie » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:42 pm

I thought it took Season Actions equal to the Rank you were raising it to.

So a Forest Rank 1
needs two Season Actions (one Action per Season, so this means across two Seasons) to make it Rank 2.
and another three Season Actions (that's One Action per Season, across three Seasons) to make it Rank 3...

So developing takes a LOT of time compared to conquering.
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