On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Share and discuss the "house rules" of your own game and campaign.

Moderator: Snag

Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby Astelle_Mwwr » Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:38 pm

Okay, maybe I'm unclear on something...conquering is done as one action per season, right? So...is it possible to use your three season actions to attempt to conquer 3 regions? Because to me that's where the rules are breaking down. What does Bob DO with those extra 2 actions? It seems a little crazy for him to sit there and do NOTHING with them.
Baroness Astelle Ru "If I had made the Bargain, I would have given up my Poison... is it too late for that?"
Baroness Gwanal Yvarai
Baroness Olivama Steele
User avatar
Astelle_Mwwr
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:26 pm

Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby wastevens » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:28 pm

Astelle_Mwwr wrote:Okay, maybe I'm unclear on something...conquering is done as one action per season, right? So...is it possible to use your three season actions to attempt to conquer 3 regions? Because to me that's where the rules are breaking down. What does Bob DO with those extra 2 actions? It seems a little crazy for him to sit there and do NOTHING with them.


Conquoring a Region requires three things.
1) Use an Espionage action on the region in question.
2) Reduce the Region's Loyalty to 0. This requires moving a Personal Guard or Secret Army into the region. At the end of each Season, the Region's Loyalty is reduced by the rank of the Military / Guard.
3) When the Region's Loyalty starts at 0, you must keep your Personal Guard there for an additional Season, to establish the Region's Loyalty to you.

This doesn't require Season Actions *from you*, it just takes several Seasons of work.
wastevens
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 7:48 am

Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby Keith Fyans » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:23 am

Why not make Conquering a region easier? I'm gonna start a new thread on this thought.
Glasgow Indie Gamers - Website ~ Facebook ~ Twitter
User avatar
Keith Fyans
 
Posts: 786
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby wastevens » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:37 am

Keith Fyans wrote:Why not make Conquering a region easier? I'm gonna start a new thread on this thought.


Well, that is another possibility. However, it doesn't handle reducing the appeal of exploring (which was my primary goal), nor does it give Strength a nice little benefit (which was a bonus)- it just requires people become more paranoid.

(That said, I'm working on some additional Conquest related Season Actions, as well as Moryandal Uvan, Fashuva of War).
wastevens
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 7:48 am

Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby wastevens » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:58 am

wunderworks wrote:Depends on the game you want to play. I sent my game so that land was rare and valuable so while there was a bit of exploring it quickly turned into a completely political game and no one worried about land except the Count. ^_^ BUT if your game makes land important then I think we could do something like Civilization the PC game does and let the players make a Risk at the beginning of play to define the world.

Or better yet - make the entire world into a Dirty Dungeon. ;)


*watches video*

Hah. :)

Although HotB is already pretty much there, with Wisdom and Cunning challenges to define the world.
wastevens
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 7:48 am

Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby Keith Fyans » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:44 pm

Added some ideas on alt Conquest rules I will playtest on this thread. Should I coupple them with my alt Explore rules above, or try both individually?
Glasgow Indie Gamers - Website ~ Facebook ~ Twitter
User avatar
Keith Fyans
 
Posts: 786
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby wastevens » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:18 am

Keith Fyans wrote:Season Action: Conquer
  • Conquer can be attempted once/season by You, your Spouse/Child or your General (refered to from here as your General).
  • Your General selects a Region under the control of another Ven that they are attempting to take.
  • Conquer is a Mass Murder Risk undertaken by your General with the initial Intent of Conquering the Region.
  • Your General may attempt to attack with only a Secret Army supporting for the first Mass Murder Risk. If your opponent did not know about your Secret Army then you gain Surprise for the first round. Further Mass Murder Risks can then call upon the full resources of both sides. Of course, if your opponent is Cunning enough they will be able to figure out that you have a Secret Army.
  • The defender gains a number of bonus dice equal to the Region's Loyalty.
  • Either side may use a Wager to destroy a Holding in the Region.
  • If your opponent takes a Rank 5 Injury they can instead choose to lower the Province Loyalty by one Rank. If Province Loyalty is reduced to zero then then for each Mass Murder risk the Defenders must either spend 1 Style or declare their Intent for future Risks is to retreat.
  • If the Defenders win then the Province gains +1 Loyalty Rank. If the attackers win the the Loyalty of the Province is reset to 1.


This is going to dramatically slow conquest down, not speed it up.

* Risks can be reliably considered as equal to (Total dice -5) for things where you *really* don't want to waste time with a failed Risk. That means you need at least a total of 8 between your General, your Personal Guard and your Secret Army to equal the speed of loyalty reduction that the system presently gets you for a Personal Guard 3. While there are certain edge cases (especially Wolves with Prowess 5 and both a Personal Guard and Secret Army) where it might be faster with this change, they're not the norm.

* UNLESS the Region's Loyalty is set to 1 when the Attacker wins the Privelge, regardless of what it started as. Is that the intent? That is, I have a Region with Loyalty 20, you sneak in with a Secret Army and I blow my Cunning check to notice, you roll 3d, get above 10 and reduce the Loyalty of the Region to 1. That's how the final bullet point reads to me.

* Most of the time that the Defender is not caught by surprise, they'll be able to reduce the attacking force by at least 1, merely by rolling above 10 via Loyalty. This will rapidly grind away invading forces, and furthermore reduces the risk of being ganged up on.

* Raising Loyalty is already valuable, for the increased Security and Resource production. I don't see a particular need to incentivize raising it further- triply so since, with a Loyalty of 8 - 10, a Region becomes an impregnable fortress, shrugging aside virtually any attack and laying them out in defeat and death.

(I do like the addition of guidelines for destroying Holdings, and have been thinking along those lines myself)

... I can't help but think I must be dramatically misunderstanding something. Could you create an example or two, perhaps?
wastevens
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 7:48 am

Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby Keith Fyans » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:09 am

Effectively I'm knocking everything down to a Mass Murder Risk... if you have Privilege you can chose whether you win or not. Once that is set at a Truth future actions can't contradict it... and if the opponent didn't know you had a Secret Army then the chances are the first Region you attack will be a walk in the park as it is uncontested.

Privilege determines who wins/looses. Wagers determine how they win/loose. Some people will and take heavy losses to do so, while others loose and walk away unharmed.

Also, attack in Spring, when the first thaws allow you to march, and when moral is at a low after Winter...
Glasgow Indie Gamers - Website ~ Facebook ~ Twitter
User avatar
Keith Fyans
 
Posts: 786
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby Keith Fyans » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:20 am

* Raising Loyalty is already valuable, for the increased Security and Resource production. I don't see a particular need to incentivize raising it further- triply so since, with a Loyalty of 8 - 10, a Region becomes an impregnable fortress, shrugging aside virtually any attack and laying them out in defeat and death.

Fair point... as I said this is untested. I'll prob drop the Loyalty bonus in that case, but keep the fact that war can cause it to drop and lead to a rout from the field.
Glasgow Indie Gamers - Website ~ Facebook ~ Twitter
User avatar
Keith Fyans
 
Posts: 786
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: On reflection, it's too easy to explore forever

Postby wastevens » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:42 am

Keith Fyans wrote:Effectively I'm knocking everything down to a Mass Murder Risk... if you have Privilege you can chose whether you win or not. Once that is set at a Truth future actions can't contradict it... and if the opponent didn't know you had a Secret Army then the chances are the first Region you attack will be a walk in the park as it is uncontested.

Privilege determines who wins/looses. Wagers determine how they win/loose. Some people will and take heavy losses to do so, while others loose and walk away unharmed.


Well, I'll grant that that makes Conquest *initially* faster.

However, it also seems like it makes it slower in the long run, because of the aforementioned grinding away.

For example: Bob and Jim. Jim's Province consists of ten Loyalty 3 Regions. Bob has a Rank 3 Personal Guard, and Prowess 3.

Turn 1:
Bob sneaks in to Region A with his Personal Guard. Jim blows his Cunning check, and so Bob gets an unexpected attack. He rolls 4d with 2 Wagers. He succeeds the Risk, reducing the Loyalty to 1. He then spends his first Wager to reduce the Region's Loyalty to 0. He then spends the next Wager to... establish the new Loyalty of the Region to 1? It's kind of fuzzy on how exactly the transition takes place.

Turn 2:
Bob openly moves into Region B with his Personal Guard. Bob rolls 4d with 2 Wagers (I'm assuming he has to spend 1 Wager to finish reducing the Loyalty to 0, and 1 to establish his rule). Jim rolls 3d. Bob wins the roll, but Jim gets above 10. Bob's Personal Guard is reduced from Rank 3 to 2, but Bob secures Region B.

Turn 3:
Bob openly moves into Region C with his Personal Guard. Bob rolls 4d with 1 Wager (conceding that he'll just have to spend an additional season action establishing himself this time). Jim rolls 3d. Bob wins the roll, but Jim gets above 10. Bob's Personal Guard is reduced to Rank 1. Bob uses an additional Season Action to increase the rank of his Personal Guard, from 1 to 2. (He couldn't declare this last time, because it started at Rank 3)

Turn 4:
Bob stays in Region C, and can make an uncontested Risk with 5d, establishing the Region as loyal to him. He spends a second Season Action raising the rank of his Personal Guard, from 2 to 3.

Turn 5:
Bob moves to Region D. (Repeat from Step 2 and 3 on)

Or is this not how it works under your proposal?

If so, that's faster for Bob *under these ideal circumstances*. But Bob is completely shut down if Jim's Regions are Loyalty, say, 5 instead of 3. Those two dice mean Jim is probably going to win the contested risk half the time, which both boosts the loyalty of the region (mitigating the already halved wagers from Bob's roll) and rapidly decimating Bob's forces.

Finally, swinging the Loyalty of the Region from N to 1 based on winning the contested risk is, in my opinion, too big and too swingy. It would be like declaring that, since you won a contested Prowess risk, you can inflict a Rank 5 injury on another, without having to use additional wagers to establish the severity of the injury. (OTOH, simply reducing the loyalty by the Wagers is just applying the brakes to a system that is already debatably too slow).
wastevens
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 7:48 am

PreviousNext

Return to The Rules of Your House

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron